DK: Art, I am in awe of you for bringing meditation to people in our prisons. How did you know that the prison system would be receptive to this experience and where did you hear about this opportunity?

AB: I'm involved in the Gangaji Prison Program. Gangaji is a world-renown teacher of non-dualism. She has a Buddhist prison program that shares non-duality in prisons across the country, although she is not Buddhist. Rather, her message passes along teachings of Ramana Maharshi, and Hariwansh Lal Poonja (Poonjaji), two hindu sages who died in 1950 and 1997 respectively. Gangaji also gives talks (satsangs) to folks like you and me who are not in prison. I got involved in the prison program through Gangaji's teachings.

DK: Are all prisons receptive to this?

AB: The way it works is the inmates make a request for us to come in. Over the years, Gangaji's teachings have become popular because they originate from Ramana Maharshi, who was an extremely prominent Indian sage. Over the last 52 years, his teachings have become more popular than ever, especially in the West. Many inmates have heard of Ramana Maharshi, and they learn that his teachings are being propagated through people like Gangaji. They find out about the Gangaji Prison Program through her books, audios, videos, or her web site and contact her foundation. We then get invited into the prisons.

DK: So when you go into the prisons, how many people are you actually meeting with?

AB: It can vary. For example, typically when I go into the prison there is a core group of about six to ten inmates. Yet when Gangaji comes into town in person, as when she was here in Portland about three months ago, we went into the federal prison with her and about 60 inmates showed up to visit and listen. That's also true with her husband, Eli Jaxon-Bear, who is also a prominent teacher worldwide with a similar non-dual teaching. He was also in Portland just a month ago and he's been going into the prisons as well. About forty inmates showed up to hear him speak.

DK: How much time do you typically spend in the prison?

AB: I spend about two or three hours with them each visit. Right now, I'm in a Federal prison in Sheridan, about an hour outside of Portland. I've also visited two state prisons, about 45 minutes from Portland.

DK: Does one need to be certified in some way to do this?

AB: Yes. It is strictly on a volunteer basis. A team of us are developing a proposal for the state prisons right now in conjunction with the psychology department at Portland State University. The state prisons in Oregon are now giving money to programs like this to help cut the recidivism rate--repeat offenders who return to prison after they have been released due to continued criminal behavior. Oregon cannot build prisons fast enough any longer, due to Measure 13, the one-strike-and-you're-out law passed in Oregon (meaning you're locked up in jail with a mandatory minimum sentence). So Oregon has given us an opportunity to develop a program that incorporates Gangaji's prison project to help break criminal habits, and prevent further recidivism.

DK: Superb! So they want to implement a program for the entire state of Oregon, and other states might follow suit?

AB: Exactly. I am really excited about this opportunity.

DK: So, typically how is your two or three hours of time spent with inmates in prison?

AB: A lot of inmates, of course, are already very familiar with these teachings, since they have invited us in there. They watch videos that our organization sends to them. So, we go in and meditate with them and then talk about their daily experiences and challenges in a prison environment. We talk about how to implement this teaching into their daily lives. So, we'll meditate and we'll discuss the videos and teachings in detail. Often times, the experience with inmates is very intimate and rich because there is a sharing that takes place on a very deep level. The inmates really appreciate us coming in and are committed to really exposing the tricks of the mind that keep the heart veiled. So, whether it's in a prison environment or not, intimacy
develops quickly with groups that are devoted to this teaching.

DK: Are you talking about a sitting meditation with eyes closed or open?

AB: Both. We start with eyes closed in silence and then that stillness continues with eyes open as our dialog begins. The time with eyes closed is simply a way to settle down the mind and to directly experience profound silence. With eyes open, that meditation continues, along with continuing dialog, like you and I are having right now. But it is more from the heart than from the mind.

DK: Has there been any data collected about how these people are faring after they get out of prison?

AB: There is a video we use called "Freedom in Prison" produced by the Gangaji prison project to introduce this program to the chapel and Warden at the Penitentiary. In this video, we document a number of inmates in interviews with Gangaji speaking about their experiences in prison. They talk about their initial exposure to this teaching and how it has transformed them. Many of these inmates were repeat offenders, and prior to their exposure to this non-dual teaching were really imprisoned in their minds, as is true for nearly everyone. As this "mental imprisonment" was resolved, they were able to stop the habits and patterns that led them to repeated criminal activity. Since being released, they have been able to not only stay out of prison, but lead productive lives. Most importantly, they are able to approach and understand life with an unconditional, non-sentimental love, which they
spontaneously share with others.

DK: Have you gotten any feedback from the inmates as to how this experience is transforming them? For example, has their perspective changed so that they feel happier and more positive about life and their prospects when they get out of prison?

AB: The inmates that I'm directly involved with exhibit this unfoldment. While finishing their sentence, what appears to be happening is a progressive awakening. The men learn to deal with the ingrained mental conditioning which led them to criminal behavior, and as a result, they're no longer held prisoner by those same habit patterns. Of course, the real proof of this is upon their release. Once that basic mental shift has taken place, recidivism ceases.

DK: Have you had an opportunity to incorporate "Healthful Living" teachings into your program--including better diet?

AB: Yes, as I've spent time with these inmates, naturally, they ask what I do for a living. I mentioned to them that I've been a Natural Health Educator for a number of years, which includes teaching in the public schools, and giving workshops on Natural Hygiene. I tell them what Natural Hygiene is and mention that I eat nothing but raw food. Like most people, they find this interesting. Some of the inmates are vegetarians and a few are vegans and devout Buddhists.

DK: How it is possible to eat that way in the prison environment?

AB: I've actually seen what their diet is like by looking at their menus, and the list of what's available to them in commissary. Interestingly enough, they can eat raw if they want, because they have raw trail mix available to them for purchase with the small amount of money they earn from jobs performed behind bars. They also have a salad bar that is available at each meal. I'm sure it's not like the salad bar spread at Whole Foods or Wild Oats or any other health food store that many of us are familiar with. But nevertheless, at least it's available to them. I believe they also have foods such as raisins and sunflower seeds available.

DK: I'm sure the readers of this interview are wondering, "how are Buddhists getting into prison?" Do you have any insight into that?

AB: What happens usually, is the inmates become Buddhists after they're already in prison.

DK: How does this happen?

AB: Well, a lot of these guys are realizing the futility of searching for happiness and lasting fulfillment through a criminal lifestyle. The men attracted to this teaching who stick with it are true seekers confronting their negative habit patterns and conditioning. They have been involved in enough criminal activity to know that they can have all the drugs, all the money, and all the girlfriends, and it still doesn't lead to happiness. Thus, they're driven within as they learn that happiness is an inside job. In prison they have available through the chapel program, different spiritual and religious books and scriptures that have been donated to the prison system. Some of them turn to Buddhism and some of turn to non-dual teachings such as Gangaji's. Examples of non-dual teachings include Advaita Hinduism, Zen Buddhism, the Kaballistic Judaism, and Mystic Christianity, representing the major religions around the world. These inmates have books available on these various topics and that's how some of them choose to become Buddhists.

DK: What are your goals with the prison system? Do you plan on incorporating Natural Hygiene thereby affecting the policies of this whole program?

AB: What I'd love to see is the success of this prison program to spread, not only from coast to coast, worldwide. Obviously, there is very little true correction taking place in these so-called "correction institutions". Unfortunately, when you become familiar with the politics behind it, one finds there is a lot of money made in the Federal prison system, where the prisons are often run by outside contractors. They need bodies to fill the jails. Human life becomes a commodity, and it's really a travesty. What usually happens when typical prisoners spend time behind bars, is that they actually learn more criminal skills from fellow inmates, and wind up becoming more proficient in criminality, rather than learning how to break out of that pattern. What I see from the Gangaji prison program is a way to break this negative cycle by helping people realize "the truth of who they really are," as opposed to being prisoners of their minds, which perpetuates suffering. In this way, they break that imprisonment and live from their heart's essence. This is a definite movement away from the unnecessary physical, mental and emotional suffering that is perpetuated by the mass societal conditioning and commercial interests.

DK: Superb Art! Any last comments?

AB: You asked what my goals are here. What I really love about this program is simply sharing my experience with people that are as hungry as I am to "wake up." What I really mean when I say "waking up" is eliminating egoic veils to our "core essence," which incorporates qualities latent within all of us such as love, kindness, joy, spontaneity, purity, and abiding in the peaceful silent aspect of ourselves that most of us desire. That's my major motivation...to enjoy spending time with people, whether behind bars or not, who are focused on waking up to their true essence.